Interview | India connects G7, Indo-Pacific, drives Quad: Kurt Campbell

Washington: Kurt Campbell has been among the most pivotal figures in crafting America’s approach to China and the wider Indo-Pacific in the past four years. The US deputy Secretary of State, who also served as the Indo-Pacific coordinator in President Joe Biden’s National Security Council, is widely seen as an architect of Quad, the force behind AUKUS and new trilateral groupings in the region, the bridge between the US, Europe and Indo-Pacific, and a champion of the US-India relationship.As the Biden administration begins to wrap up, Campbell — who first began working on America’s approach to Asia in the Bill Clinton administration and authored the Barack Obama administration’s pivot to Asia strategy — sat down with HT on the iconic seventh floor of the State Department building in Washington DC on Friday and offered a big picture look at US, China, India, and the region.The conversation covered multiple themes — the impact of new security architecture in the Indo-Pacific, Quad’s emergence as an enduring group with security dimensions, the churn in the Indian Ocean and China’s threats, the American convergence with India in newer geographies as well as newer domains from tech to space, challenges to ties from the Bangladesh and Khalistan issue, the contribution of Ajit Doval to ties and future steps for US and India.Q: The Biden administration has created a new security architecture in the Indo-Pacific: Quad, AUKUS, the US-Japan-South Korea and US-Japan-Philippines trilaterals. Is the region today more free and open or less free and open than it was when you took over?A: I think the results of US’s moves to build stronger partnerships with both traditional security and political partners and new arriving states on the international scene speak for themselves. A world in which the US, India, Australia, and Japan, for instance, are working ever closer together on a variety of initiatives in the Quad is, by definition, better-off. You talked primarily about just partners the Indo-Pacific, but what we also see is a broad range of new engagements from European partners in the Indo-Pacific.Overall, those initiatives are stabilising. They create confidence among like-minded nations. It gives them a greater sense of companionship on working on common issues like freedom of navigation or peaceful resolution of disputes or just the expansion of technology ecosystem. So I feel quite positive. President Biden will be remembered very well for the steps that he has taken to build a stronger, more durable framework in the Indo-Pacific.Q: Has it been able to shape China’s behavior for the better?A: If you are careful in reading how we have described our overall approach to the region, at the core is an assessment that we have spent much time trying to shape perceptions or trajectory of China in previous periods. We have to be humble about the ability of any outside force or grouping to shape the contours of a great power like China. It has its own trajectory that it is following. What we have instead said is that we are seeking to shape elements of the surrounding environment. And I can tell you that I think we have been successful in the surrounding environment. In terms of the ultimate trajectory of where China is heading in this critical period, the jury is still out. There are some signs of the US being able to find some arenas of common purpose, whether it’s on fentanyl or building lines of communications or seeking to prevent crises. But there are also real areas of contention and competition and those issues will likely endure going forward.Quad: From Indian ambivalence to leadershipQ: What has been Quad’s core security contribution and the core public goods contribution?A: The work that has been done in public health, with respect to Covid-19, with larger issues on just general public health, and now with the most recent efforts on the Cancer Moonshot for cervical cancer largely in the Pacific and Southeast Asia are groundbreaking and important and unprecedented. If that was all the Quad did, they still could be very proud. But it has extended to many other things. We have educational initiatives. The Quad Technology Initiative brings large numbers of up and coming technologists to the US and has allowed for creating a cadre of people who will animate our tech sectors.You are also seeing Quad increasingly working in elements of security, which extends beyond simply traditional definitions to being prepared for humanitarian crises, empowering our coast guards to deal with illegal fishing and other initiatives. And so you are seeing in a variety of security-related spheres — maritime domain awareness, coast guard collaboration — coordination and a degree of institution-building that are again unprecedented. And I believe that it will lead to further engagements going forward.We have now had six (leader-level) meetings. The depth of engagement among each of our bureaucracies, at the Prime Minister and presidential level, foreign ministries, in other agencies of our government is profound and we see it literally on a daily basis. And even though we all refer to this, in many respects, as an informal gathering, it has more roots, more potential, and frankly more actual weight and significance than many, much more established institutions of its kind.Q: While Quad predates this administration, the president, NSA Jake Sullivan, and you have really driven this. Will this kind of investment from America’s top level leadership in Quad stay?A: The first time the Quad met was after the tsunami in Indonesia in the early 2000s. And then, for years, it was not more than a few sort of episodic engagements. But the President has always underscored that this was built on previous foundations and anyone who comes next will do the same. We are proud of the fact that it’s bipartisan. At the same time that the Quad was meeting (in Wilmington), there was for the first time a Quad caucus that is bipartisan on Capitol Hill.At the very beginning, when we were seeking to take the Quad to the leader level, there was some ambivalence in India. I will acknowledge that and questions about whether this was the right step for an India that is taking an ever larger role on the global stage. The president talked to Prime Minister (Narendra) Modi first about bilateral issues, but then made a pitch about why the Quad would be an important investment. And, probably with some uncertainty. PM Modi accepted the invitation. That was four years ago. If you jump forward to today, I would say that even though obviously President Biden has played a huge role, so has Jake Sullivan, a driving force in much of what we do is PM Modi and the Indian government. And so this is an institution that I believe that the Indians have invested powerfully in and that they believe advances not only Indian interests, but the common interests of the four great maritime democracies of the Indo-Pacific. I am frankly unabashedly proud of the fact that I have been able to witness myself an India that is increasingly confident, has a vision and is prepared to work with partners on the international scene.Building habits of cooperation is a critical task, but it is not always easy. And one of the things that has been fantastic to be part of, to learn from, is to watch how our four countries, in advance of summits, as we work through problems, learn to work more constructively with each other. Those habits of cooperation are going to endure, no matter what happens politically in any of our countries. We have already seen a succession of leaders in Japan and Australia, we will have that in the US, and I am confident that whoever succeeds PM Modi will be equally invested in the Quad.Indian Ocean churn, Diego Garcia dealQ: Let me move to the Indian Ocean. There was a time when Diego Garcia was seen as this big point of contention between India and the US. On Thursday, the UK and Mauritius struck a historic agreement on Chagos (Mauritius gets sovereignty over the archipelago, the US and UK get to lease the military base for 99 years) that has been welcomed by US and India. How significant is this and what went into the making of it?A: First, I just want to commend the negotiators on both sides, but particular props go to our friends in London who had to engage creatively and extensively behind the scenes. In addition, the government of India and the US played helpful roles behind the scenes to encourage a positive outcome. This agreement gives us confidence in our ability to continue to engage appropriately in Diego Garcia. It creates a much more stable footing for future operations, and basically creates a more difficult set of challenges for actors that are antithetical to our interests getting a foothold.The US and India have agreed really for the first time to launch a rather substantial dialogue in the Indian Ocean. We are looking forward to that. I think both sides are preparing how to think creatively, not just about the security challenges, but some of the other issues that are so important that create opportunities for further collaboration between Dehi and Washington.Q: China is stepping up its presence and activities in the Indian Ocean. What is the kind of security architecture that you visualise and that you think can come out of this dialogue? And are you thinking of expanding this, with a role for countries such as UAE?A: I would say that this is one of these things we need to take step by step. Until quite recently, Indian friends have been maybe a little reluctant to engage in this kind of dialogue with anyone. But I believe we are both facing some common opportunities and challenges. And so it is appropriate to begin this kind of high-level dialogue between the US and India. I will also say we are at very early stages. We want to take important soundings from Indian friends and partners.The way that India thinks about everything, which I admire, is that they like open architectures for other countries to participate. As you probably know, Indian Ocean falls somewhere in a seam between our various military commands. Secretary Austin has asked (IndoPacific command commander) Admiral Paparo to take the leading role here, but this also brings into play countries in the Middle East countries in East Africa. This initial dialogue will be exciting because we are going to be able to more fully define the parameters of what are the particular issues that we need to double down on, which will be in national security as well as environment, fishing and the like.From Taiwan to tech, convergence growsQ: From your time as assistant secretary during the Obama administration to your time in NSC and now State in the Biden administration, how has the nature of the conversation on Taiwan changed with India?A: I would simply say that increasingly India and the US are quite like-minded strategically about how we see most issues in the Western Pacific. We each seek an understanding around peaceful resolution of disputes, around freedom of navigation, about adherence and support for the law of the sea. India’s economic and political engagements are frankly growing dramatically across the Indo-Pacific from Japan to Australia. India has sought to build a stronger unofficial relationship with Taiwan, and they have spoken out about their desire to see a maintenance of peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait. We are very pleased with our engagements with India on the Indo-Pacific, and we see them playing a much more dynamic role in all Indo-Pacific architectures. And they are more active independently in places like Southeast Asia and the Pacific. We support that. We welcome that.I did my first Indo Pacific dialogue — we called it just an East Asia dialogue — with India, ironically, at the Pentagon in 2000. Then I continued those as assistant secretary when I was at the State Department and then now both at the White House and here. That trajectory has been dramatic, but it was clear even at those early moments how much common perception there was between Delhi and Washington.The dialogue that we had and that we have ongoing between the US and India in the Indo-Pacific has given us confidence to seek to expand those dialogues, to look at other areas. So we have agreed that we’ll launch an initiative on Africa where India is quite significant, but we also believe that India has growing interests in South America and they would like to be able to engage the US more directly on that. And so I think as we move forward, the goal will be to see where possible, how the US and India can align views not just in the Indo-Pacific, but really on all matters of global concernQ: On the bilateral front, tech and space cooperation have stood out. And the one thing that there’s been discussion on but hasn’t seemed to move a lot is nuclear. What has been the progress and what are the next steps in all three domains?A: Space is the most exciting, obviously, and you see really dramatic progress. India has expressed interest to engage in almost all aspects of NASA’s programming and some of the other work that we are doing. That calendar is set out and any uncertainties or inhibitions have been put aside and we are now full partners here, and I think India appreciates that very much.Technology speaks for itself. I believe it is a foundational set of initiatives. I give enormous credit to Indian partners to understand the vision here. My good friend Tarun Chhabra (the senior director for tech NSC) has been tireless in promoting this. What we are seeking and seeing increasingly is that India is becoming a powerhouse in technology. It’s early days, but increasingly the potential is being realised. I have been involved in many initiatives. But iCET meetings are almost like some sort of revival to see the enthusiasm of unicorn and upstart Indian technology companies. I know you are not supposed to get involved in these things emotionally, but I found it deeply inspirational to meet 100s, maybe 1,000s of Indian firms that are inspired by the potential to work more closely with the US. If you ever have any doubts about where the US-India relationship is heading, spend a little time with the entrepreneurial class in both of our countries. The natural linkages, the desire to work more closely together is remarkable. It is encouraging and I support it completely.The nuclear stuff is complicated and we have faced some obstacles. I will say that the small modular reactor (SMR) technology holds progress and promise and we seek to focus on that as well. There are still issues associated with potential liabilities and the like, but increasingly both US and India recognise that we are going to need to get beyond this if we are really to engage in important and practical ways in nuclear technology.The challenges, from Bangladesh to KhalistanQ: Two challenges in ties have come to the fore. One is more immediate: Bangladesh, which is a part of the Indo-Pacific. And there is increasingly a view within India that Delhi and DC are not on the same page, that Washington had some role in regime change in Bangladesh, and you are creating a setup which will lead to radicalism in Bangladesh and hurt Indian security sensitivities. What would you say?A: All I can say here is that we would like the current government to take every possible step both to secure the safety of its people, but we have also encouraged more communication, better relations between India and Bangladesh.I think it is incumbent on us to listen closely and carefully to Indian partners about things that develop in their own backyard. We have sought to have the most open dialogue with India about developments inside Bangladesh. And I think we have tried to be very clear of our role, which has been limited, and frankly more than anything else, to see a maintenance of stability. I acknowledge that this is an area that has raised some anxieties in India, but we have sought very much to communicate directly of our strong desire to make sure that India’s interests are noted and acted on.Q: And you see room for convergence on Bangladesh?A: I do, yes. And more than anything else, I see an active role on the part of the US in encouraging both the appropriate treatment of minority populations inside Bangladesh, but also responsible communications with India, who is the big important partner in the region.Q: The second question is on the broader issue of Sikh activism and Khalistan. There is the Pannun controversy. There was a controversy about the timing of a particular meeting that happened in White House. There was a private civil suit which resulted in a summons against NSA Ajit Doval. He has led iCET, yet many speculate that he did not come with the PM visit due to this issue. How do the two countries deal with this?A: So look, the issues that you described are in appropriate legal channels. I am not going to comment on those directly. We have had high level engagements between the US and India on some of these matters. We have made clear our concerns. I think those lines of communication have been open and they have been valuable in ensuring that we have been able to communicate our interests and concerns. And I think those discussions continue.I would say simply, on Doval, we have found him to be extraordinarily important interlocutor on building the modern infrastructure of the US-India relationship. And we are grateful for the work that he has done on behalf of that effort. And I know he has been an outstanding partner to Jake Sullivan.The future of the partnership, advice for the US and IndiaQ: Where do you see the India-US relationship in say, five or eight years from now?A: I have been unabashed about saying that I believe that the US-India relationship is the most important bilateral relationship for the US in the 21st century. And it does not mean that the US and India will be allies in some formal fundamental way, but I think the partnership is bending the trajectory of both of our country’s engagements in the world in ways that I believe are positive.I would like to see a world in which the travel, technological, people, cultural connections between India and the US grow, not slightly but exponentially. And the prospects for that are real. And everywhere I go, and when I meet the diaspora community in the US, many, if not most, are deeply proud of the progress in the US-India relationship and the connections that have been established. I am very bullish on the relationship. The role of PM Modi and President Biden has been central, and I am confident that they will both hand off to the successors a relationship that’s growing in strategic significance and importance.Q: What would your advice be to the next US administration? How should they carry forward in specific forms the work that you have done on the Indo-Pacific and vis-a-vis China, be it export controls, be it the security architecture?A: At just a very basic level, when you are building habits of cooperation, it means regular touch points and engagements. I would like to see that on almost every issue that we are dealing with, whether it’s in the Indo-Pacific or Europe, we are engaging practically in dialogue with India to find where there is common ground, common purpose. I believe that process is underway.I would like to see India represented in more of the global leading institutions. Its role in the G20 is essential, but I think it is the lynchpin country that connects the global south with the Indo-Pacific with the G7. India sits at the signpost, at the crossing point, of all the world’s great regions and the most important issues. And so I think India’s more active representation in UN agencies, even other groupings, is a natural progression that I would like to see happen.And then I also believe, just finally and fundamentally, that in our technology sectors we are only scratching the surface and there is much more that can be done. We are working constructively on 5G and storage, but as we look forward, there’s much more that can be done in AI and quantum and synthetic biology. These are the new frontiers that I believe that the US and India are prepared for. And I will encourage, counsel and support anyone who follows, Republican or Democrat. And I will articulate and advocate for placing India at the very most centre of US strategy in the world.Q: India sees you as a friend. What would your advice to India be, not as the deputy secretary necessarily, but someone who has nurtured this relationship? What can India do now in the next few years to realise its ambitions?A: I think in many respects, India is doing it. I see very deft diplomacy on the global stage. (Pauses) There are probably still elements in India that are somewhat wary about too deep of engagement with the West. I fundamentally believe that in almost every instance, those partnerships that are developing in technology and like-minded endeavors on climate, environment, on disease will make the world a better place. India has great relations in the global south, very strong traditional relations with the country like Russia, but also growing, burgeoning and extraordinarily high-potential relations with countries in the West, the US, Australia, Japan, Western Europe, countries in Latin America. Those are partnerships that I think India can lean forward into.

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Interview | India connects G7, Indo-Pacific, drives Quad: Kurt Campbell

US deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell speaks to Hindustan Times, offering a big picture look at US, China, India, and the region

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Interview | India connects G7, Indo-Pacific, drives Quad: Kurt Campbell

US deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell speaks to Hindustan Times, offering a big picture look at US, China, India, and the region